Joe Celko was a member of the NC database standards committee from 1997 to 1997 and helped throughout the NCIO. Also helped throughout the SQL. He has written over 800 columns in the computer trade and academic, mostly dealing with data and databases. He’s the author of quite a number of books. His SQL for Smarty’s books have been particularly well know and have given him a strong reputation in the community, and now all have been in multiple editions. His SQL programming installation books as I’m sure, have started many debates.
Greg Low: Introducing Show 21 with guest Joe Celko.
Our guest today is Joe Celko. Joe was a member of the NC database standards committee from 1997 to 1997 and helped throughout the NCIO. Also helped throughout the SQL. He has written over 800 columns in the computer trade and academic, mostly dealing with data and databases. He’s the author of quite a number of books. His SQL for Smarty’s books have been particularly well know and have given him a strong reputation in the community, and now all have been in multiple editions. His SQL programming installation books as I’m sure, have started many debates. So, welcome Joe.
Joe Celko: Thank you, Greg.
Greg Low: First off, I’ll get you to describe how you got to be involved with SQL Server at all?
Joe Celko: That is a good story. Was programmer, mostly scientific. Early in my career. My first masters were in math. I knew how to do FORTRAN and statistics more than I wanted to. Put myself through night school with two master’s degrees. The only math class made it night, was Oregon State University stat courses. No one cared about linear transforms, it was always business and the Psychology majors taking stat courses. Finished 40 hours in statistics and got into programming. That’s where began to do Nextel. Got into defense contracting. What we did in my day. I was getting the hang of what I was doing. The statistician was already interested in data as data.
Greg Low: You didn’t find the committee meetings very dry?
Joe Celko: Most of them were really great, some of the best people in the world. Lot of confusion about patent and languages. Exact intellectual property words. Going back to when laws were written. Live in the country where there is one for every four hundred people. This picture is very questionable. If keep going to these meetings then you have to write it out. Always find somebody to help me a little bit. In between companies or jobs I do it myself. In weird situation. Violating anti-trust laws or what? We brought it in as a community. We did what they told us to do. IBM, would stand up and tell us about a product that may or may not work. IBM DB2 is going to have this in it got it. Started working on what we called NDL (Network Data Language). Trying to abstract it and turn it into a standard. Finished it no one cared. RDL (relational data language). Shaw came in with a copy of the IBMS specs for SQL. You’re putting our specs down.
Greg Low: Wow.
Joe Celko: There was no legal presence. IBM trying to be the heroes. Kids these days hate Microsoft. I’m old enough I hate IBM. Kept at it. After many articles. Someone said, should write a book. Sure I can write a book. Writing a booking is just like writing a magazine article isn’t it. I was a year late of course. Smarty’s caught on because it was the first book to get out there with the actual working programmer help that was needed. People miss this. Though you see it all the time now. Declarative language. Know redundant. But it’s a declarative mindset. People who have OO or traditional languages don’t have the mindset for it. They choke on it. Want to see steps instead of a declaration. The only language before SQL is spreadsheets. Think about it, it’s clarity of language. It’s a strange looking one. Programming language. Nice graphic good looking interface. Very, very, different model. In a traditional sequential. Got out there with a first good look at this type of programming. It stuck. A lot of it came from the magazine columns. Now on the third edition and my publisher hates me for the third edition. Priced it two-hundred pages shorter than it ended up being. Then started doing spin offs with SQL. Trend in books these days. Get a smaller book for $20 to $40. It depends on the topic interested in.
Greg Low: Actually enjoy that format of books. Been writing books for rationale press. Most appealing to me, is the limit of 210 pages. Roughly. The thinking is if you can’t say in what you are intending to say on that size in a specific topic. Then you’re not doing it well
Joe Celko: Just like that with movies. If you can’t describe it on the business card then you’re not doing your job.
Greg Low: Like the size.
Joe Celko: Seen many books and I see the posted notes sticking out of it. That’s the most sincere praise you can get from a programmer.
Greg Low: The SQL programming style book that had me intrigued. I was looking at covering some of the topics from there. Like a set of rules and ideas. When write those things down, start a religious style debate! I have no doubt your book has already done this on various forms. That’s a wonderful thing. As a starting point. Talk about names and data elements?
Joe Celko: Not a ritual with me actually. From the committee went over to the. One moment. Metadata standards committee started setting up rules for defining things. Rather than being specific in defining things, they started with principles. What are the parts of something? In metadata, been a lot of other standards. Had a fair number of things. Obsessed with paper work. Essentially, wanted to get that. Take the ISO 11179 principles and some of their particulars. Put them into a set of rules that when get to a job can say things like: were modeling trees. A forestry gig. What are the attributes? Want to know the tree diameter and measure in cm. I have a unit of measure good descriptive name for the attribute. Don’t want to see ID. It drives me nuts.
Greg Low: Just the word ID itself, yeah.
Joe Celko: Simply indicates the order that the row was turned into a record. Actually has nothing to do with a data model.
Greg Low: I’m sure you have a strong thought on that. Want to hear your opinion on how far you have been in terms of your design work to the physical implementation under the covers.
Joe Celko: As little as possible. Too many years on the standards committee. And decades of experience. Start using excuses. About machines to be able to write the code this way. An actual example. Before they disappeared had some really wonderful features. Take a value to itself. Authoring from the results this lets you add free to a value to the machine structure. Ever try machine codes? The early were implemented very close to the hardware. Continuous storage was the assumption. Where the floating point went. Before the IEEE standards. Can write all this insanely fenced code of using all of these hardware tricks. When it came back around deported it wouldn’t move. It would move but it wouldn’t work right and arrive in its destination. I did defense contracting. I bitched about going throughout all the testing and stuff. She said Joe if this isn’t right you will kill the wrong people. In a minute I went on to do medical stuff. Again if you screw up you will kill people. Desktop computing. Little league scores. It’s not a weapon.
Greg Low: People haven’t worked with these critical systems at all.
Joe Celko: Another one that is big with me is. This guy who just got his certification. The Dilbert, have that in Australia?
Greg Low: Yes.
Joe Celko: Everybody does.
Greg Low: Stable thing in the IT community.
Joe Celko: Let people rebuild it. 20 to 25 percent of the homepage for geeks are set to that. Many will not pay the programmer. Hey you speak VD whatever. SQL is another language therefore you can learn SQL when they use it that way I got you. We need a mission critical system that can hurt the company or other human beings. Maybe the week after. In some ways I’m annoyed because a lot of them are very arrogant about it. Never mind that in the United States it takes 60 years. In New York state. I think that probably the database person is a little stronger than a good carpenter. I’m not locking a good carpenter thing. There was a little intellectual effort that needs to go into being a database worker. God help us he’s usually smart enough that he or his buddies can cue in on something or limp.
Greg Low: Limp is an interesting analogy there. One of the thing s I spend a lot of my time doing is. Working in this area where there are performance problems. Quickly becomes clear that non on in the place at all has any real database background.
Joe Celko: Yeah. I don’t know yes it is a universal problem. Oh I can’t remember. Greg that’s invisible stupidity.
Greg Low: I just sort of wonder that it may be what you touched on before. Easy to when you get to a point when you sort of get things working
Joe Celko: Especially on a small scale. The machinery is fast enough where it can run faster than it can be displayed. When it increases in size or you need to put the results somewhere else. You start noticing how pretty the screen was. It’s essentially putting makeup on the corps.
Greg Low: ID was the thing that got you to that spot?
Joe Celko: Originally came in with the original version. Still have a schedule number. Originally got a primary key in SQL. Backed off later. He was still thinking in terms of everything has to have a sort key. One of these keys would be the primary sort method. To make merging method possible. Key is a key there is nothing special about his key WVS. That key. Its values versus novas. In the identifier. To put into SQL which has been built on top of all file systems and depended on some sort of sort key. End up with an idea of physical record number. Venders storing things in sequential files this is no longer true. Basing imaging on a disc. The incremental road number was um. Easy enough to do. What the heck, lets go ahead and expose it so are programmer can unique I8FY. If it isn’t a vocabulary word it just turned into one. It’s quick, it’s easy. It requires no brains. Feel like you’re doing an RETM. To actually go back and look at what you need for a relational identifiers. It works. Have to know my industry and these days with Google there is no excuse. Typing a couple of phrases. Fifteen to twenty of most find out where your standards are. There are only questions for its use for what kind of problem to transfer from the ten digits to the thirteen digits. In the U.S.A., I don’t know how Australia is? Converting over from our universal product code. In searching.
Greg Low: Yeah, I happened to know that because I have been building for wholesalers and things like that for many years.
Joe Celko: I mentioned checking this with people. They have no idea what it is. I don’t mean a bold code or something like that. They just don’t understand the concept.
Greg Low: Yeah there is no understanding as to what it is.
Joe Celko: The first thing you do when you design an interface is going to a person and get back to the database correctly. Should my encoding have a check digit? If so what is the good appropriate on what will give me enough safety for my particular situation.
Greg Low: It’s interesting you say safety. No concept there about the digits.
Joe Celko: Those are awful. I don’t expect anything to go to the best one. It’s a little complicated. A table look up: blah, blah, blah. At least a bull code would or something would. It doesn’t have to be. Because, the right the answer is always forty-two. So it’s, there is a lot of quality. Also a huge increase in volume and the fact that databases became cheap. Started putting a lot of them on desktops. I don’t know if home depot has reached Australia?
Greg Low: We have the equivalent of it.
Joe Celko: In the U.S.A., they go to South America, over to Europe and they are looking at China as well. The system to use is to recommend contractors to install the things that you buy on home depot. It crashes once a week. I don’t know how it’s working out but their CEO has been fired. They don’t know how to get the information to set up a contract to someone selling home equipment and building materials. Should have a really good system for getting contractors. And they don’t. How does this happen. One guy started keeping access database on his desk in Atlanta Georgia for contractors he knew that he could recommend. It became the company’s standards. Or it got cancer. That kind of growth.
Greg Low: The one thing I’d have to say about that. That’s a common scenario I see played out all the time. Where somebody has written some excess application. Gotten out of hand. One of the things that is positive about it, it’s an indication that the tool was enabling enough for someone without IT support to be able to start doing something.
Joe Celko: Yes it also gets some nice results that made it suddenly very valuable to the company. Wow we really can get someone out there to go in your sake. A month from now, the system will keep crashing and forcing backups unless we can change something. Need a bigger drive on the desktop. Not supposed to be doing it in the first place.
Greg Low: Yeah that’s common.
Joe Celko: It speaks to the trade. Indicative.
Greg Low: Standard naming conventions?
Joe Celko: Yeah, it’s important. One of my complaints is the front end and the back end guys. Don’t call anything by the same name. When get to data warehousing projects it’s even worse. Horror story was with Delta Airlines trying to set up a Weyerhaeuser across all databases. Sixteen definitions of customers! They found: Person sitting on a flight with connections. A person that requires special treatment. Someone who takes up no arm. By the way, if you lose a baby it’s much worse than the suitcase, trust me. It could be a pre-sold seat where no person has been assigned to it. Can be a pre-sold seat that was never redeemed. Went through all of these things. A company person traveled without paying for a ticket and transfer to get them to a new location blah, blah, blah. Passenger which would be a basic thing in an airline industry gets really complicated. So a person was busy trying to get this straight from the data Weyerhaeuser. For no other reason that the first time anybody looks at the enterprise as a whole. Start wondering about the data dictionary.
Greg Low: Do you think one of the reasons. You get the success of little access databases that are quick and easy. Because people who develop those get to spend all their time on the common use case. Proper system development spends most time on the edge cases.
Joe Celko: Spend a lot of time too on the Enterprise. Going back to Home Depot and their enterprise database. The state of Georgia has different contracting license arrangements and standards than those in the other forty-nine states. It’s covered by Home Depot. All he has to worry about to validate the ID number and how many digits. A check digit which can do it all. I call at the state licensing agency to see if this guy really is certified as an electrician. Okay, take that and multiply it by fifty. All of which can be different and change any time the assemblies meet. Have a track head. And processing. Is it an electrician? In New York State also allowed to do this in New Jersey or not. Probably because this is a complicated thing. The first article I ever wrote for information system rules was the Rhino Album. In Tarzan movies. The old black and white ones. When Tarzan was attacked by a rhino he would jump, dodge and be safe. Good algorithm for one rhino. Lets add a heard of rhinos. The single rhino algorithm over and over is not a good solution. Tarzan would be turned into peanut butter on the jungle floor! Large projects within their active things. It really is just a different kind of problem. Not just a matter of buying another disc or doing the same thing faster. They become fundamental problems. The kid that came up with his certificate for Microsoft. He went through a sixteen week training class. Doesn’t understand because he hasn’t seen it. Small sets clear definitions and gives one the ability to fake a few things because the specs are vague. Not the same as an Enterprise level system at all.
Greg Low: Indeed. Another thing you also discussed was people doing the re-designing and coding the schemes where existing ones are already were in place.
Joe Celko: In this day and age. I’m teaching a college class. Scales and measurement and encoding at the second. Also lecturing on the encoding scheme. I pass out weird 3 by 5 cards with something weird on it. Your job as a student is to come back next class with a download of the specs of the standards that define these things. Not important that we know the definition of what’s on the card. But, the idea that you know you can research it. In particular with programming? Do you know his first published article?
Greg Low: No I don’t.
Joe Celko: Lutheran High School in the United States and Mad Magazine asked for submissions. Prodigy of the metric system for Mad Magazine. I threw that on my 3 by 5 cards to see if anybody could find it.
Greg Low: Indeed they can.
Joe Celko: I have it on CD. When the kids go nuts on that I print it out for them, hand it out. I get a laugh. Its great fun and silly. Its first publication was at seventeen. There are a lot of different standards. To scale for earthquakes for example. Richter and the other one is in Italian. Five systems for finger rings. Japanese, American, British for shoe sizes. Celsius, Fahrenheit. Absolute or Kelvin. Temperature and so on. I’m always ashamed that I have to apologize that the U.S. is not on a Metric system.
Greg Low: I also found that intriguing.
Joe Celko: We’re a big enough economy. Our cars are being made in millimeters finally. Finally buying our Coca-Cola in liters. Cigarettes measured in millimeters. Probably got an American cliché here. When we don’t switch over off of the metric system we then have to set up our own series for sizes. To the nearest milliliter. Came up with new bottle sizes as opposed to Europe. Have no idea why. Need to move over to A series paper.
Greg Low: Must admit. It’s funny where I take all those things for granted. I do find it frustrating when I’m elsewhere.
Joe Celko: The one that was always fun, doing taxes on wrong size paper. That last line always disappears. Wish we had done it two-hundred years ago. Miles per hour.
Greg Low: Joe is there anything you want to share outside of your work?
Joe Celko: I’m in Austin Texas. Middle of Texas. Imagine all your Western movies, or Australia, without the sheep. Had an ice storm. Down in 40’s and 50’s. Summer is a minimum of 10 days and over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. If the airport closed down for two days it’s staying that way. It’s been fun. I’ve been running around doing different things in my personal life. Writing books on using table driven queries. My premise for the book is that Intel has just announced the 80 core chip in the next few years. Looking at storage. Getting dense and fast. Looking at the possibility of solid state disc.
Greg Low: Already becoming quite common. Bret Ryan I used to work with. He’s been talking to me about the Ram drives. And other client who had been trying one had processes at that took that 14 hours that now took them 12 minutes.
Joe Celko: Trying to fashion those things to the way we print out newspapers. This technology is a continuous process. The bad news is we don’t have the necessities for the parallel system within the data base systems. Sorting algorithms and a bunch of other things. They now need to be implemented. One of kernel laws is allocating one processor for every task doing it. May get to the point where we can allocate one processor for every row on the tab le. Within my lifetime. My grandfather got to see the Wright brothers and men on the moon in his lifetime. Not exaggerating. If I want to do net present value. Complicated financial function. Do with table look up back when there were books and slide roles or do the calculations. Processor of to the side blah, blah, blah. What happens if I hit store in primary storage then net present value and interest rate is going to be late. They go by 10 percent or 100th of a percent. Load an entire table. Slap them together with raw data and come back with the results in parallel without ever doing the calculation. It’s not that far away.
Greg Low: Joe Pluta. In the CLI group in Redmond. Moved back to Australia. The session addresses the enormous numbers of processors available what do we do with them? Many of the problems trying to solve are the problems that are already solved in databases. In terms of how things are done in sets. The operating system always a lot of tasks. Procedural logic. Don’t tend to think about processing every service at once what I would do.
Joe Celko: To see if it’s relational is put it into sequential order. Drop it on each row or even a slot within my database. Get a result back. Would it work? Tendency quick order then. I’m not in relational land I’m back in tape files. May be fast tape files, but its tape files. It’s a variable construct but it’s not the independent partition set model that we are trying for. It’s not declarative.
Greg Low: Wonder through some of the specific rules in terms of names and data elements? The names themselves? The length of names avoids special characters etc?
Joe Celko: X3J Languages. In the MCX3J standards. J indicated the language. The important thing is data elements only have one name consistently used across the entire enterprise so there’s no confusion. I know that its diameter of a tree that is measured in CM. I go to data dictionary find it and know it. Just like doing the application code. Put information in the front end. Put a little cm beside the measurement and give it a reasonable check. Do you think 4,000 cm is the diameter of the tree? Special characters do things.
Greg Low: My logic there is, I tend to routinely avoid special characters. Because somewhere along the way it’s going to get me into trouble.
Joe Celko: Or you’re going to sort differently or something. It’s too easy it’s quick. Suddenly a Sea Sharp.
Greg Low: One of the things that’s interesting with that. A good example of that is Sea Sharp don’t search well on Google for example.
Joe Celko: The quoted identifiers are allowed. Good way to get there. But they are actually a bad idea to the ASO11179. Three diameters a particular attribute. What I did in the book was come out with a bunch of post fixes and define them very carefully of what they were. Example: underscore ID, underscore date. For tag numbers and names and so on. The controversial part? Data Weyerhaeuser are worried about that kind of thing on the summary and corporate level. I did a class type and category as various levels of restriction. Precision maybe is a better word on naming something. A category that was an external source, good for grouping. Like different categories for biology. Class was in external coding, first class user. In type a little vaguer a little less formal, everybody will have their own thing that highlights those rules but I just wanted something there. Address versus location status image whatever. Add a short abbreviated category of post fixes code.
Greg Low: Not a big fan of post fixes. Drives me insane see people with words joined together and they abbreviate one word. What they achieved by abbreviating is very little. Why not just write the word?
Joe Celko: Makes searching in the dictionary easier. When going to the data dictionary like things related to trees. Tree-type diameter.
Greg Low: Isn’t data dictionary able to be solved a different way?
Joe Celko: Yes and no it give you taxonomy where you can organize your data.
Get something brand new completely blind. Okay the first word is going to be a simple descriptive noun that knows what I’m dealing with. Marriage. And then inside that maybe I don’t know the post fixes, but if I see marriage LIC for license, I can understand then marriage date. I see marriage official. That’s a little weird. But maybe authority. Know they were married in a church or expect to see the license of the guy that performed the service. I know it’s all with the root word marriage.
Greg Low: What I react to myself. Working in environment, well people using blackberries to send e-mails is becoming very common. The typing skills on those are very poor for the managers. The shortest e-mail said. TUYD. I thought wow, I had to sit and look at that for ages and then I realized it said thank you and his name. Even contextually. I had another one where he had the word App for a double p. We were discussing application and I couldn’t work out the context at all. The word was “appreciate”.
Joe Celko: I would have never guessed!! “App” misspelled. Ugh.
Greg Low: Probably yes. I’m reacting to that.
Joe Celko: Yeah, overly abbreviated. I read comic books these days. One of the kids at the store was a very charming girl who is now married and has a kid and all that. I met her when she was 17 and she took me over to Dominguez Hills Community College and she taught me how to do the shortcuts on texting. The dash 30 dash on an article. The things that were still part of the United States Publishing Industry. For manuscripts. Get funny looks for dash, dash capitol calculated. That’s from an old system convention in the military always last name and the dash, dash indicated the type of terminator.
Greg Low: It’s a version of the special code. I was having a big chuckle about in Belgium. The tax returns. What they had was an optical character reader that was processing tax returns. When it couldn’t process the value it gave all nines. The next level of the system didn’t recognize that at all. And the budget of the entire system was overstated by eight hundred million dollars. Went to parliament. Had to readjust Parliament expectations because of the magic number
Joe Celko: Cobalt. Would read it all on punch cards. When doing the ICD Codes. Use that punch card and the all zero code has been corrected since version 6 or 7. Cobalt could recognize versus zeros. Always used to use old mines for miscellaneous stuff that would take things to the bottom. In this Cobalt environment. One male, two females, nine corporate people.
Greg Low: There’s an interesting one. Are they actually a standard those ones? I have seen various things on the male/female codes.
Joe Celko: Used for medical issues. Current gender and previous genders. Those are funny. While I’m writing the book I mentioned that the ICD codes are both three digits decimal three digits. Can confuse them if you put them all in the same table. I need to go my manuscript now and look it up. Family in pastoral counseling under religion. Inter-determined adolescent sex gender. You’re an adolescent and you haven’t differentiated yet. These things are not even close but they have the same code number.
Greg Low: The rule there. If there is a standard coding use it? Otherwise going to have to translate somewhere.
Joe Celko: Also it’s more than that. The outside trusted authority will do all the work for you. Would you want that with a statewide library system? Of course not. It’s just not worth it. Can’t communicate, the overhead is absurd. Just too dangerous for anything important, so of course you follow the standards.
Greg Low: One of the common religious debates in the singular versus plural table names?
Joe Celko: A table is a set. Therefore it should have a collective name then if not possible for some reason a plural name. The singular name is generally not acceptable at all. For example I don’t have a table called employee. I would really have it be called personnel, so that it gives me the abstract personnel for it. Why? It’s a set, something that sums up a set. Not a crowd of individual items or a single entity sitting out there. In English it’s fairly easy to do. Generally good at it. Original reason for doing the singular names was for files systems. Bring in one record at a time and as I look at one record at a time I can see it’s a singular noun. Looking at an employee record. Which are a set of employee rows? It’s sort of hung over. Showed up in one of the US Federal Standards idea or something.
Greg Low: The inception you make is table that only has a single row?
Joe Celko: Yes. If I have a table of contents. Like Pie C. Whatever the case may be. There’s only one row, I have a towel with the names of the columns and their value. Locked the table down to one row and then I’ll put in the values and I’ll put those in as defaults. So I can say inside the default.
Greg Low: All values are populated for defaults.
Joe Celko: Yeah. Been there since 1989.
Greg Low: Do you think that’s a little bit of a failing there because there are no different construct for doing things like that which isn’t just a table.
Joe Celko: Well actually there is. Can do a create view constant and values pour in and we’ll spin out that way. I started in SQL92.
Greg Low: List of columns as values and that was SQL99.
Joe Celko: Yeah. It isn’t bad. I talked to a Cobalt programmer. Us SQL guys look like wimps
Greg Low: Relationship tables linking tables.
Joe Celko: Prefer relationship table. Marriage. The US is going for all kinds of stuff on that. A gal with little authority and all she needs is a license number. The license number isn’t a property of the guy or a gal. It’s a relationship not a line. I don’t like the form link. I never really did LISP right.
Greg Low: Another one you mentioned. What names where people use a different name for the same things in different tables?
Joe Celko: That happens all the time. Student then you have a column called ID. Student underscore ID in another table. This is like changing the name of your cat as it goes from room to room. The same name needs to be put consistently across the system. Sometimes discovered later. Delta Airplanes and their Weyerhaeuser. And all the possible definitions of a passenger. They were really having a definitional problem. Not just passenger. Physical passenger, food service passenger, infinite arms passenger, seeing eyes dogs. Good story with delta on that one. Short commuter hop that took place in Atlanta. One of their theatre airlines. Was a blind guy that would fly back and forth from home in Savannah and Legislature. Brought his dog with him. Got stuck somewhere for a while. Flew back and forth once a week. One of the pilots. It takes about two hours. The guy said I’m fine I have my brail here, but my dog needs to be walked. For the horror that everybody that’s watching on the ground.
Greg Low: Beautiful. I was listening to a podcast called “Betel in the sky with a suitcase.” One of the stories they were talking about was a short 3:30. They were an Irish design thing. They look like a shoebox with wings. What they have in the front is a fan for the pilot. It isn’t enclosed in a wire mesh. If you literally put your hand into it. You have this sensation that your hand is going to get cut off. The pilot came on to do an announcement. He put his hand in the fan. And came out with it cut off. And all the passengers were just sitting there white faced. It didn’t look good or sound good.
Joe Celko: My favorite is the pilot comes on and says “hi this is God, we will be flying at such an altitude” then he said “let’s get this God damn son of a bitch off the ground.” But he didn’t know he was still on the intercom.
Greg Low: Where can we hear from you next?
Joe Celko: Want to get to PASS in 2007.
Greg Low: That’s in Denver this year.
Joe Celko: Hopefully I won’t get nosebleeds. I don’t do well with altitude. Being terrorized by Mormons who didn’t want me to drink.
Greg Low: Yes for memory that is September.
Joe Celko: The rest of the time I’m not sure. I don’t run my own life. And I don’t have much experience doing that. I go with the flow. I want to do more internet teaching. The end of last year all my classes were booked with databases. They are a little slow this year. The budget expired. This year I really need to work for it. Hopefully I can do some other things. Will be doing database design. Temporal quarries. Portable things. So hopefully I can get the word out and let people know yes my SQL is the host but material is also good for S QL server whatever. Programmer that want to learn some techniques. I tend to be more on product I mean technique than on specific products. I’m SQL guy not the Oracle guy. If you like a list of names who are the type of people who are in that category. Learn particulars please give me a call and I’ll come out and take the money and go home.
Greg Low: Sounds great. Thank you for your time today Joe. I hope to maybe see you.
Joe Celko: It’s so quick. Christmases start going by like windshield wipers.
Greg Low: I’ll see you in Denver.
Joe Celko: I should be there!